Must Be Married

1

You could just do a civil service type wedding and have a real ceremony on your own schedule.

I think the rule is pretty fucking stupid. Where are you, Oaklahoma right? I was always under the impression from the doctors that I've talked to in New York City, that IVF is an option often used by lesbian couples who purchase donated sperm. Helping someone get pregnant as a fertility doctor is a good use of modern medicine, deciding who's allowed to get pregnant based upon your own moral standards is wrong, in my opinion. You and your fiance is a perfect case of how someone's moral judgements end up being destructive, when they believed they've acted with the best of intentions.

I don't understand the rule either. In fact, it seems blatantly discriminatory to me.

What is the exact wording of the rule as per their company policy?

And yeah, I echo SN's excellent point about IVF being a common method used by gay and lesbian couples or even single women who want to become mothers.

First, (((((hugs))))) I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

:mad:

I think it should be illegal for that to be a his personal rule. That doctor is bringing his morals or personal beliefs into this and that just is NOT right.

I'm so sick of people trying to dictate what is right for other people.

GS that sucks,i dont know what to say,if that is really the doctor you think best for IVF i would say it is worth waiting.Otherwise i would just look for another doctor,it is so unfair they do that,cutting off the possibilities of many people who would be great parents just for their civil status.

As you said,things will go good,and before you even notice you will have your twins hand and feet painting with you :D

*hugs*

I'm sorry to hear your having to go through this...and I definately don't want to start any trouble or make this thread have to move to the debate section...but I don't think what the doctor did was that wrong.

*hugs* You'll get there.

Nadine.

well 1. go to the court house and get married and have your vow renewals and reception when your real wedding is origionally planned.

2. I don't really understand why anyone in a commited relationship would want to have a child without being married but then i'm old and I'm old fashioned.

That is ridiculous, even if it is a private treatment. I don't understand this- they are willing to offer it up to married people facing a 50/50 chance of getting divorced but not to a long term couple? Will being legally married somehow make you two better parents? I think not.

In any case, many hugs are being sent your way. Things will work out for the best... just try to stay positive.

Ugh. Marriage discrimination can be so ridiculous.

.

2. I don't really understand why anyone in a commited relationship would want to have a child without being married but then i'm old and I'm old fashioned.

I understand where that opinion comes from, despite the fact that I disagree with it. What, beyond a few legal things, does "marriage" offer children, anyways? I was raised by a parent who would have been better off unmarried, and unfortunately I know too many people whose lives were not destroyed by marriage but rather destroyed by divorce and the havoc ex-husbands wreaked. I personally plan to have children without being married. I believe children benefit from strong relationships and loving parents, not the legal relationship status of the parents.

You know, I'm not so sure its a moral issue as it might be a legal issue. Do they freeze the spare eggs or freeze extra sperm? Maybe they're thinking that if you two split then they'll have to be drawn into the middle of a legal battle determining who gets custody to the eggs or something like that. Its possible.

I'm sorry you're hurting.

Shan

I understand where that opinion comes from, despite the fact that I disagree with it. What, beyond a few legal things, does "marriage" offer children, anyways? I was raised by a parent who would have been better off unmarried, and unfortunately I know too many people whose lives were not destroyed by marriage but rather destroyed by divorce and the havoc ex-husbands wreaked. I personally plan to have children without being married. I believe children benefit from strong relationships and loving parents, not the legal relationship status of the parents.

my stepdaughter being called bastard child would not happen if her mother would have married her father like he asked over and over again....

You know, I'm not so sure its a moral issue as it might be a legal issue. Do they freeze the spare eggs or freeze extra sperm? Maybe they're thinking that if you two split then they'll have to be drawn into the middle of a legal battle determining who gets custody to the eggs or something like that. Its possible.

I'm sorry you're hurting.

Shan
This could happen even if they WERE married.

It's a private practice so they can refuse treatment to anyone.

See, this is where the problem lies. I am forced to agree with Nadine that a doctor should be allowed to pick and choose his patients. That said, this freedom is not absolute. For example, it would be a violation of civil rights laws if your doctor were to refuse treatment to a black couple, or perhaps in this day and age, a gay couple. Damn, too bad you're not an African-American lesbian, preferrably in a wheelchair! ;)

I didn't say anything because she is the BEST of the BEST...and they're aren't any other choices....

This is related to the problem I cited above. Even if it were possible to sue this doctor, you probably wouldn't want to unless you no longer want her to perform the procedure.

I'm really sorry, sweetie. This sucks! :( ((((HUGS))))

my stepdaughter being called bastard child would not happen if her mother would have married her father like he asked over and over again....

If someone is calling their own child a bastard, I think the problems run deeper than not being married.
While that is one case, I can certainly point you to many similar personal stories about women who have lost EVERYTHING in the course of divorce. Remember the old joke "the number one cause of divorce is marriage"?
While I don't mean to suggest that all marriages are awful, one personal incident doesn't account for the masses, either.

I doubt I would have heard "You f*cking ugly sl*t, I never should have married your dumb*ss mother" if my parents had never been married. Of course, that was before my father also racked up $4million dollars in debt and it took my mother four and half years to get divorced, losing her property, credit, and children in the process. I suppose I wouldn't be so cynical if I hadn't seen it so much. My inspiration to attend law school has been the numerous conferences I have attended to witness domestic violence victims who have lost custody of their children to sexual and physical abusers. Additionally to be considered are the amount of women married terrified to leave their husbands despite abuse of themselves and of children.

As I mentioned earlier, it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't functioning, well-operating parental units out there, but marriage is not a precursor for good parenting. Additionally, this line of thinking might run parallel to feelings that gays may not be good parents because they can't marry. I don't think an institution that is so unfair is something I want to be a part of.

My original response to this post dealt with how ridiculous it is that GS and M are being denied this right until they are married- as if a magical commitment will descend upon them after marriage. That commitment is likely something that came years before and is already part of their relationship, and it's not fair that they are being denied such a right simply because the government hasn't granted them "the ultimate commitment" yet.

BB

If someone is calling their own child a bastard, I think the problems run deeper than not being married.


NO ONE said anything about the parent calling her that.

NO ONE said anything about the parent calling her that.


Regardless, I'm not sure I believe that being married would have hidden a trait which would speak something so nasty.

Edit: if someone had something that nasty to say, it's likely they had other awful and hurtful things to spew at that person, whether it be in anger or hatred. i doubt that the parents being married would have protected a child from at some point or another encountering diversity or hatred.

I really don't like the idea of a doctor helping reproduction. Evolution didn't make it possible for a reason. Not to mention the world is severly over populated.

I really don't like the idea of a doctor helping reproduction. Evolution didn't make it possible for a reason. Not to mention the world is severly over populated.


What exactly do you mean here? You don't like doctors helping in any aspect?
Or only certain stages of reproduction?

For example, how do you feel about a couple seeing a doctor when the woman or man can't produce and want their own child?

Just seems too general to note that doctors shouldn't help reproduction in general.

I thinkthe doctor has every right to determine who they will and won't help.

and I think that if we have the ability to help people who want children bear children we should use it, just like we fix broken bones in ways we couldn't a century ago.

And while I Know a piece of paper does not a commitment make... I also know in the society most of us live in, it makes a difference.

oh and I think gays should be able to get married just like straights and bis.

I thinkthe doctor has every right to determine who they will and won't help.

and I think that if we have the ability to help people who want children bear children we should use it, just like we fix broken bones in ways we couldn't a century ago.

And while I Know a piece of paper does not a commitment make... I also know in the society most of us live in, it makes a difference.

oh and I think gays should be able to get married just like straights and bis.


You're right, it does make a difference. Which brings us full circle to the point that couples can be discriminated on based on their marital (or rather non-marital) status. Which is disappointing as is the case here with M and GS.

I wish you both the best of luck...

What exactly do you mean here? You don't like doctors helping in any aspect?
Or only certain stages of reproduction?

For example, how do you feel about a couple seeing a doctor when the woman or man can't produce and want their own child?

Just seems too general to note that doctors shouldn't help reproduction in general.

If someone isn't able to concieve then that's the way it is. I don't like doctors making it possible to continue to over populate the earth.

Wow, while I understand your opinion, too, it seems a little harsh. But you're certainly entitled to it. So we shall agree to disagree.

I'm heavily outnumbered, but at least I don't/won't have descendants that will witness the end of the world through over population. (this assuming we don't blow up the world soon)

http://www.vhemt.org/TYFNB.jpg

SD, I struggle with having a baby for this very reason. It's completely selfish of me to want a child....but it's incredibly hard for some to deny that need. It sucks. Anyhow, you're not alone in your thinking....humans are bad for the earth.

Right on Annie. You're one of the few people have said they at least know it's not the best thing to do. There are so many people that don't even give it a thought. Humans are so selfish.

Hey GS, I'm sorry, I know it didn't come across as supportive....I was just responding to SD, and forgot about the actual thread topic. Sorry, my bad.

I DO support what you are doing, and I'm sorry you have to go through this...espcially since the office didn't tell you sooner.

It's a tough spot to be in, and I'm not sure if I'd want to rush the ceremony and get married sooner, or if I'd want to just get the marriage licence and do the ceremony as planned. Good luck though in sorting it all out, and yes, I am interested in hearing about your IVF...and eventually your TWINS!

I totally support you going for IVF. I think the doctor's policy is rediculous and you have every right to be angry. You've been looking at this for a while, and it seems unfair to you that you are just learning this now...espcially after you've probably paid for many consultations already.

I don't think about you overpopulating the world in any way. Overpopulation is a very specific problems with very specific symptoms, and its usually created and perpetuated by societies that grant no control over reproductive rights. Which is the furthest thing from what is happening here.

Marriage and parenthood have nothing to do.My guy and his ex wife got married cause she got pregnant of their only daughter.

They were not in loe and all they did was being together for little more than 4 years for the girl.There was no love in that marriage,was it better than the couple splitting before she was even born?I dont know,he has been only sùpportive and raised her on his own.She on the other hand,even if she has not taken care of her much (even having the custody)moved to where he was stationed and is moving again so the girl has always both mom and dad.

I dont think marriage should be a must.Having your parents together doesnt necessarily mean your children will be happier,or live in a ore stable familiar enviroment.If you are a stable couple now,that is all that matters,No one can assure marriage will make a couple last forerver,or that it will be even positive for children.

My parents were married for 28 years,together until i was 22,believe me i wished they had divorced long ago,they were unhappy and that affected us more than a shared custody and the visit mess.

It went a bit out of topic,if i were you and that doctor is the only chance you are taking would get married and the celebrate it how you wish later.After all it is just papers.

I think it's totally unfair. But, if it's what you really want, just go to the courthouse and get married for the document. You can still have the wedding you want and only the two of you need to know about doing it early for this reason.

Right on Annie. You're one of the few people have said they at least know it's not the best thing to do. There are so many people that don't even give it a thought. Humans are so selfish.


I suppose then, that every human having sex (unprotected or not) could be considered selfish.

Having IVF to have twins is still population 0. If you want to complain about people overpopulating society, complain about peole having 15, 16 or more kids. Thats where overpopulation becomes a problems...not when the person is looking at only haveing 2 children.

GS, I'm so sorry you guys are having to go through all of that. It must be tough. While I can understand the Dr.'s right to insist on whatever rule he feels necessary, you really should have been made aware of this specific rule the first time you met the dr. In today's society, no one should really assume people are married. If I was you, I would just go down to the court house and get the piece of paper, and then have the ceremony later. Starting a family is such a big decision, you should be able to do so when you feel is right for you. Best of luck.

SD, I struggle with having a baby for this very reason. It's completely selfish of me to want a child....but it's incredibly hard for some to deny that need. It sucks. Anyhow, you're not alone in your thinking....humans are bad for the earth.

I agree with this too - because of the Earth, but more so because of all of the kids that are already here that don't have parents. This is why if I have kids they will be adopted. And this is also why I don't like the idea of IVF or other types of doctor assisted conception (in honesty, I think that having kids is selfish regardless of how they are conceived).

HOWEVER, that is just what is right for ME. So I do support people who choose to conceive with a doctors help because that is what is right for them - who am I to tell someone that how they choose to have kids is wrong? Which is why GS' situation bothers me. This doctor IS discriminating. She is basically saying that b/c they are not married they are not qualified to be parents. As other posters have noted, a piece of paper does not make for good parents.

There's been a lot of interesting discussion here about who is or is not qualified to be a parent and whether it is morally right to procreate in an over-populated planet, but let's try to get back to the essence of this thread, which is a young woman and the love of her life are being denied the opportunity to pursue their dream of having a baby via IVF unless and until they get married.

Let's put all political and moral debate aside and focus on the anguish and frustration that Kristen and M must be feeling. Trying to conceive a baby, especially when dealing with infertility issues, is extremely stressful and potentially heartbreaking. We can talk all we want in abstract terms about what is "right" or "wrong", but at the end of the day, let's not forget that this debate has a human face on it and it's not abstract at all.

Kristen, this is a tough situation and so unfair. Unless you are willing and able to go to another specialist who doesn't have such rigid requirements, I guess you're stuck with this bozo. I just hope that after all the aggravation she's giving you guys, she comes through with those twins! :mad:

(((((HUGS))))

i dont care about overpopulation.If i have the will,and the chance to have them,and the resources to raise them covering all their needs,i will have children.I would make use of whatever is in my hand to do it,adoption,IVF whatever,that is a personal choice.

"Kristen, If anyone should be a mom, it is YOU....I have never even considered having a child w/anyone I've ever been with...and I also share some of the same concerns you do about the world...But I know that our child will grow up in a very loving, supportive home with two parents that wanted them more than anything... AND maybe THEY can change the world for the better"

These two people,deserve to make their dream come true,and those children will be just lucky to have such a nice parents.I dont think there is room for selfishness here.

Oh, GS! I'm SO sorry you have another roadblock on your path...but I'm sure you'll get there!!

Like most have mentioned before, I'd just do the court thing...so you're legally married, and then have the big wedding later. It just seems like it would slow down the process even more if you wait till your actual wedding...and I'm sure you're getting sick of waiting!!

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Let's put all political and moral debate aside and focus on the anguish and frustration that Kristen and M must be feeling.


In all honesty, she did ask what people thought about the rule--- that was the main question in her post--- which does bring up some debate.

Personally, I don't think it's completely WRONG to try to make sure that the kids have two parents.

PERHAPS the thinking is that, there are so many children who are born out of wedlock BY MISTAKE, so if the situation is actually a controlled one, marriage is required. I can understand the controversy, but, esp since you ARE planning on getting married, and soon, I think it is just a bump in the road.

In all honesty, she did ask what people thought about the rule--- that was the main question in her post--- which does bring up some debate.

True, true. But how, then, did discussing the rule turn into an ethical debate about procreation on an over-populated planet? Surely the rule is not meant to prevent THAT! LOL :D The marriage debate, I understand.

well see it's called THREAD DRIFT!

Personally, I don't think it's completely WRONG to try to make sure that the kids have two parents.

But their kids ARE going to have two parents. And a marriage certificate does not guarantee that their kids will always have 2 parents any more than it is guaranteed right now.

Thanks again everyone for your support...I feel so much better today!!!

It's great that you're feeling better today!!! Have you thought more about what you might do? (Hope I'm not being too nosey :) )

Mazel Tov on your marraige.

Woohoo!!!!! Our very first MTaG wedding!!!!! OMG!!!!!

:D :D :D

So...
when's the big day???

Mazel Tov!!

That's such exciting news!!!!

Congrats!!!!

Congrats!!! Sounds like things are working out well for you guys. I hope there will be lots of MTaG babies by next summer, two of them being yours.

Great news!! I'm glad the specialist gave you two some slack.

Hehe...I like the pic you posted too. You still have the exact same smile!

Awesome Kristen!

And that pic is way too cute!

WTF!! I have never heard of a stupid rule like that! Like SierraNevada said you could do a civil service ceremony and then have a real ceremony on your own time. You guys are planning to get married so that should be good enough for them. I hope it all works out!