Take off wedding/e-ring for job interview?

I will (hopefully) have some interviews lined up next month for summer legal internship positions.

Anyway, I read something in a well-respected legal job search book that disturbs me. The author suggests that young women take off their engagement and/or wedding rings for job interviews because many law firms are weary about women who 1) take off work to have a big wedding and honeymoon; or 2) take off work to have a *GASP* baby. Apparently, not having a naked ring finger gives off the impression that you may be one of THOSE women and thus a risky hire. :rolleyes:

What should I do? On the one hand, I am annoyed that women still have to abide by such arcane rules. But on the other hand, like it or not, the law is still such a conservative profession where older male judges and law firm partners still frown upon women wearing suits with pants instead of skirts. Grrrrrrrr. :(

P.S. If I do take off my ring, I have a new problem: tan lines on my ring finger! How do I get rid of those? :eek:

I'd take it off. Men take off their rings for so many types of jobs and reasons, so I wouldn't even feel bad about it. It makes you more mysterious with out the ring, like u said, I have heard the same things of the law profession and it's really none of their business if you're married, you're a capable woman who deserves the job, so in my opinion, i don't see a problem with taking off the ring to get your foot in the door.

To get rid of the tan line, take off ur ring once a day and sit in the sun for a half hour to an hour with a book, holding ur hands up in that book reading position gets a lot of color on your hands.

i wouldn't. the tan line will give it away.

then you get hired and poof you have it on.... umm not cool.

trust your gut kiddo and stop letting books tell you what to do.

then you get hired and poof you have it on.... umm not cool.

I will get hired now but won't actually start work until June 2007. So maybe I will "get married" between now and then? :D

Don't do it. That's a form of deception. Not a good way to begin.

But what do I know? Look to the examples of the female attorneys and judges that you admire, regardless of their age. Do they wear their rings?

Em you have to be true to yourself....

I'd do an experiment..

Go to one interview with it on....one with it off.

But in my opinion...I say leave it on. Do you really want an internship with a shiesty company that doesn't hire married women because of stuff that *might* happen???!!!

Nadine.

Em you have to be true to yourself....

DO NOT TAKE THAT RING OFF!! Nadine is right. Do you want a job that discriminates? Maybe they hired you because you weren't "married" that you will never know. But if you feel the need to remove one of the biggest parts of yourself then you are lying not only to them but to yourself. And now since you did it on purpose it will bother you.

A reputable firm will intern you regardless of your marital status. This is a small thing and I say don't sweat it.

In fact get the toothpaste out before interviews and shine that puppy up:D

~Jenna

Wow, never heard of this form of discrimination before! I say you leave your ring on, because if all they focus on is you martial status, then they can just go to hell. I will agree that the Law profession is very conservative and all, but I have never heard of men hating women in the law offices na d court rooms because they're married. But I can ask my land lord whay she thinks of that, she's a public defender! I'll get back to you Em.

No way will I take my ring off to get a job. It's deception, plain and simple. PLUS, if I'm SINGLE, doesn't that make it MORE likely I'll end up engaged and married on "office" time then not? :rolleyes:

What idiotic advice. Sorry. I also happen to think the whole buying into the pant suit vs. skirt suit BS is ridiculous, too. This is 2006, for crying out loud. On ALL fronts, be yourself. And if you want the system to CHANGE, then for crying out loud, change it!

Women didn't get the right to vote by sitting in their drawing rooms knitting socks. Women didn't get to wear bikini's by covering their full bodies in traditional garb! Sheesh...

... I wear slacks to job interviews. I do NOT hide my tattoos during the summer. This is who I am. If you like me, you like me and if you don't, you don't.

And yet I say this while growing nails so my hands look prettier, and styling my hair so I make a better impression. Fact is, as depressed as I was last week about this whole job hunting scenario, I still KNOW when it comes right down to it that I will find the right job in a place which will like me for who I am, because I'm not really interested in misrepresenting myself.

Wear your ring if you wear it regularly. Wear pant suits if you LIKE them.
~phos

I'd actually think being married is a plus. Stability is a factor in any job.

And, I saw "The Firm".

I don't think showing up w/o a wedding ring is "lying". Them asking you if you are married and you saying you're not, that's lying and obviously a bad idea b/c they'll find out when you fill out paper work. But it's not lying to not wear a ring, my mom and dad both take their rings off a lot for work b/c of the kind of work that they do. Let people assume what they want.

I am doing the whole professional job search thing and I have changed my nails long and red to short and tan. I wear my hair up in a certain way and dress a certain way for the interview, I change jewelery. When I get home I rip some of the stuff off and dress how is more "me". I don't feel fake, I feel like I do what I have to do to look professional in a state that is in financial debt and it is really hard to get a job here.

Companies aren't supposed to discriminate on age, sex, maritial status etc. but some still do. If you looked spanish but were really white, if you looked white but were really black...should u have to announce your ethniticy to someone? Sometimes i think it's better to be a lil mysterious, let people see the skills you offer and not let them be distracted by your personal life etc.

Obviously, only Emzak knows her own situation...and only she can decide what she feels comfortable doing, but I don't think people in general are horrific if they make changes for a job interview.

I think this form of "discrimination" is pretty common actually. I always, in any meeting, even though I haven't been in any job interviews (but had been to a re-admission hearing at my old college) turned it around. I won't take it off, but I make sure its not visible. I don't want to flaunt my marital status at all. I always take the tack that the less someone knows about you (potential employer, thesis advisor, someone you are negotiating against) the better. Remember, if they have under 50 employees in New York and New Jersey (its 3 in CT, 6 in MA, 15 in ME, 20 in DC and a few other states have seperate laws) they can fire you for having a baby. In that case, it isn't discrimination! Morally wrong, but totally true. But most states are only bound by the federal FMLA of 1993 which says an employer has to be 50 employees or more. If you lived in California, where there is a paid leave statute...I would definetly take off the ring, or at the very least wear a very small and demure replacement one. No states can discriminate on the basis of sex, but only a few states have clauses against marital status discrinination (generally the same ones that have decent leave standards...sorry to anyone who lives in the deep south or west.) Discrimination cases are notoriously hard to get to trial anyway and it will cost you more in fees to even push them to an offer, so I would minimize the risk as early as possible. If you are applying for a govt. job, state or federal, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But in the private sector...its no holds barred on discrimination.

SilentAngel, I can see someone taking their ring off for a high risk job. Polarity's husband should not wear a ring on the job and she has a story to back up WHY, too. :eek: He still did, and then found out the hard way. :o

Being a lawyer or working for a law firm is NOT a high risk job. As far as I understood it, asking if someone was married or had a family was pretty much a major no-no on a job interview. I've never been asked that, however in the past I had willingly volunteered it (without it causing a problem getting the job, either).

I just think its tacky and a misrepresentation. And as someone who has been in the position of hiring, I feel like Salt. I'd find the ring to be more a sign of stability, and an indication of someone willing to make a commitment and therefore would think positive things as a result of it being worn. Not negative.

~phos

SilentAngel, I can see someone taking their ring off for a high risk job. Polarity's husband should not wear a ring on the job and she has a story to back up WHY, too. :eek: He still did, and then found out the hard way. :o

Being a lawyer or working for a law firm is NOT a high risk job. As far as I understood it, asking if someone was married or had a family was pretty much a major no-no on a job interview. I've never been asked that, however in the past I had willingly volunteered it (without it causing a problem getting the job, either).

I just think its tacky and a misrepresentation. And as someone who has been in the position of hiring, I feel like Salt. I'd find the ring to be more a sign of stability, and an indication of someone willing to make a commitment and therefore would think positive things as a result of it being worn. Not negative.

~phos

Point taken, you know I respect you and your opinion. In my opinion however, I have been judged in the past in many situtations both postively and negatively for being or not being single and I just kind of like to keep it aynonomous of the bat. I don't think it's anyone's business if I am single or not. I guess I can see how it may come off as a lie, but I guess I just don't care.

I'd find the ring to be more a sign of stability, and an indication of someone willing to make a commitment and therefore would think positive things as a result of it being worn. Not negative.

*nods in agreement*
Although he was kind enough to hire my bachelor ass anyway, I once had an employer tell me (at a blue collar job) his model new hire was a newly married man with a baby or baby on the way. Such a man had a family to support; he was less likely to fuck off or walk off the job because he wanted to hit the bars or take off and go hunting.

Aint' that the truth, Poll?!!? :eek: I think the same can be said of many women. I am a single mother (technically... I'm only engaged, not married) and one would think, therefore, like the man with a wife and baby, MUCH more likely to be reliable and steady. :D

SilentAngel, I respect your opinion, too. And some of it might totally just be where we live and what have you. ;) I'd still think it a misrepresentation. But I don't think any less of you for thinking differently. :D
~phos

*nods in agreement*
Although he was kind enough to hire my bachelor ass anyway, I once had an employer tell me (at a blue collar job) his model new hire was a newly married man with a baby or baby on the way. Such a man had a family to support; he was less likely to fuck off or walk off the job because he wanted to hit the bars or take off and go hunting.

See now that just infuriates me, not you of course, but the fact that someone actually said that to you.

And if someone said that to a woman, it would infuriate me even more. Even though I have a boyfriend, I am a kind of a crusader for single women. For years women were treated like things that we just meant to be married off and now after years of hard work there are finally women who do well in the corporate world and I don't feel like they should be judged on the fact that they have husbands or not. Someone's marital status doesn't automatically make them a better canidate for a job then someone else but ur story is a perfect example, there are so many employeers who think that one way or another.

If marriage indicates repsonibility, then what about the responsible woman who can't mind a man she actually loves? Should she settle just to appear responsible to judge mental people?

What? What Poll's boss said.. in all reality.. does have some truth to it. (More truth then judgements, if you ask me). What's really, essentially, wrong about saying that ~ especially to someone you just hired who DIDN'T meet those qualifications?

People have all sorts of reasons for hiring people or not hiring them. They are ALL judgements. I didn't like the way you responded to question #3 in the interview or I didn't think you smelled good or your personality just wasn't the right fit for this office. All judgements.

Judgements must be made when you're in the position of hiring/firing.

I think when you make the judgement call to misrepresent yourself in an interview and then get offered the job you might not have been offered if you had been honest about who you are... well, then that's where things get tricky, resentment and dislike and bad office politics can come into play.. *shrug*

Everything in life is a judgement. From what shoes you're going to wear today to which of the 235 resumes you just looked at are going to get an interview.

~phos

And yet I say this while growing nails so my hands look prettier, and styling my hair so I make a better impression. Fact is, as depressed as I was last week about this whole job hunting scenario, I still KNOW when it comes right down to it that I will find the right job in a place which will like me for who I am, because I'm not really interested in misrepresenting myself.

~phos

I knew you were going to bring that up:rolleyes: That is comparing apples to oranges really. Taking off your wedding ring to get hired is not even close to improving your first impression. Colouring your hair, cutting it, growing your nails and putting on make-up doesn't change who you are inside. It only improves how people may precieve you on the outside. Taking your wedding rings off for any reason also changes how you feel on the inside. Take your ring off for a day, I dare you. You will feel nekked, exposed!! That I know.

It is the same as lying, even if you are the only one who knows the truth. That is like asking "if a tree falls in the forest..."

As for my man's wedding ring? I told him he couldn't wear it to work. He chose to because he thinks it is disloyal not to wear it. Then he found himself hanging by this band of gold off a roof truss 60 ft in the air:eek: He has hardly wore it since and when he put that ring on last week-end I hadn't seen it in so long that it took me almost all day to realize he had it on. Now, I will have to look and see if he had it on in Mexico? He doesn't remember to put it on every week-end and I don't require him to wear it. You know just looking at him he is married:D You can smell it:D

As for my wedding rings? Hell would freeze over before I take them off. And he would flip his lid if I took to gallivanting without them. I have divorced gf's who still wear theirs because it takes out the horny men factor when they are out. Usually, they can avoid men when they see the rings.

~Jenna

Have you asked Zakem how he feels about you taking those rings off?

~Jenna

Emzak, how do you feel taking off your rings?

I had to get my rings sized a couple of months ago, and I felt completely naked without them on. I definately would NOT have done well in an interview. I always wear my rings, so I feel very uncomfortable without them on.

I also agree with everything phos and others have been saying about not misrepresenting yourself. You are married. You're rings show that you are married. It would probably be akward if you got hired with them thinking you were single and then you showed up the first day of work with rings on.

this is SUCH a california response but,
Couldn't you sue them for descrimination???

Umm... chiky... did you miss my post on judgements? Let's get into the definition of discrimination, or at least one of the least recognized ones:

2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.

It is the JOB of an interviewer TO discriminate. They must make decisions in the best interest of the company, the best fit, the most qualified, the best representative, etc., etc.. ALL interviewers discriminate for a variety of reasons. It's part of their job and their perogative. In fact, its a requirement. The most qualified person might not be the best FIT for the company, might be in a very high profile, public position and therefore can't look like a slouch or a slob or an undignified representative of said organization.

Discrimination is part of reality in job hunting. Any "sane" judge would just say... "ahhhh, get use to it?"

~phos

Oooh oooh...California is one of those states where private employers aren't allowed to discriminate on the basis of marital status (and I believe parenthood as well.) California is the ONLY state with manditory PAID maternity/paternity leave...so while I definetly don't think its a good idea to wear the ring in California (covered employer doesn't want to pay someone for not working), they'd be just as crazy to ask in an interview if you were married or had children. I would also keep it off the resume.

While I qualify this with...discrimination cases are notoriously hard to prove...the state of Michigan, and the District of Columbia forbid private employers for discriminating on the basis of "weight" (Mich.) and "personal appearance" (D.C.)

Ummm... personal appearance? If someone came into a law office lookin' like a drugged out crack ho, the hell if I'd hire 'em. :eek: LOL. Or if they came in dressed in a totally slutty way, no. No way. Discrimination of this kind is alive and well everywhere.

But, you're right that you shouldn't even be ASKED about family/kids on an interview. I never have been, and doubt I ever will be. And I've only looked for jobs in VA.

~phos

It's discrimination but what can you really do ab out it in an interview unless they ask you and how would you do something about it if they did it would be your word against theirs unless you told them you were taping the conversation and then they wouldn't ask. I know in Hollywood you'd be an ASS if you were going for a job and wore your wedding ring. they want single people for jobs no connections to a family. it slows them down. i would never ever think of wearing my ring to an audition. it would lower my chances of getting a job. A lot of jobs are acquired in my profession by the casting director or productior or director likeing your look, and what you stand for and being a single person always works for them. sometimes ine the back of their mind they maybe be thinking of being with you. I say if it gets you the job let' 'em think whatever they want to. so no no ring

It's discrimination but what can you really do ab out it in an interview unless they ask you and how would you do something about it if they did it would be your word against theirs unless you told them you were taping the conversation and then they wouldn't ask. I know in Hollywood you'd be an ASS if you were going for a job and wore your wedding ring. they want single people for jobs no connections to a family. it slows them down. i would never ever think of wearing my ring to an audition. it would lower my chances of getting a job. A lot of jobs are acquired in my profession by the casting director or productior or director likeing your look, and what you stand for and being a single person always works for them. sometimes ine the back of their mind they maybe be thinking of being with you. I say if it gets you the job let' 'em think whatever they want to. so no no ring

But in HOllywood it PAYS TO BE A SINGLE SLEEZE!! Young men and women will always gravitate toward the single good looking famous person as opposed to the married ones. The good looking unmarried people are still "accessible" to the fan. Hell, famous people are known for hiding their marriages. But not because they will lose fans but because they will lose themselves to crazed fans. And if you weren't under dillusions you would know that most casting agents,directors ect HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK AND KNOW ALL ABOUT YOU ALREADY!!

BUT THIS IS NOT HOLLYWOOD!! Hello!! We are talking about real people who for the most part will go through their lives relatively un-noticed except by there loved ones. We are talking about real issues, not about issues plaguing the poor, rich and famous.

Em, is not applying for a fucking role in a movie but a job she has spent blood,sweat, tears and a ton of money to get!!

ESH, I didn't have an issue with you like many here did/do. I may take issue with the fact that you have not yet used any life's experience,or story tangible to go along with your opinions or advice. You can of course give your opinion and advice but if you want someone to heed it or to at least considerate as a valid point then please use your imagination if you must and give you opinions and advice with what us normal folk can relate to.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (rolling eyes into a seizure)

~Jenna

This isn't Hollywood??!! Damn, I've been wasting alot of time preparing my acceptance speech...."First of all I want to thank alllll the little people...."http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

I was under the impression that in any state in the country it is illegal for an employer to ask someone in an interview anything personal such as marital status, parenthood, age....and that absolutely none of that information should ever be included on a resume.

Of course employers are going to discriminate. They want to choose who they think will be the best for the job. Although, often in their discrimination they pass up very qualified individuals.

I went back to school when I was 40 and got a degree in communications. Shortly after I graduated I moved to Rhode Island. I gave up lots of networking situations in Rochester, NY because I wanted to live here. Then when I got here and started applying for jobs that I was more than qualified for I didn't even get called for an interview. Employers don't need to ask how old someone is if they have a resume with many years of work experience. It speaks for itself. I know I faced, and continue to face age discrimination and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. It's very frustrating.

Now back to Em's question.....you have to be true to yourself. If your wedding rings are a fundamental part of who you are then don't take them off. But many married people don't wear rings at all. So, although the rings are the beautiful outward sign of your marriage, they aren't the marriage. You're still just as married with them on or off. I'd be willing to bet that many professional women do not wear their wedding rings to work....it might be a privacy issue. Many men don't wear a wedding ring at all. They don't get flack for it....well, maybe they do from their wives....lol!

I think if it was me I'd wear the ring (I'd also expect my husband to wear one at all times too....unless he had a job where it might be a safety issue). But then again maybe I wouldn't wear my rings in a work setting at all, not just to the interview process....it might also depend on the job. I might also choose to keep my maiden name which I went back to a few years after my divorce. I might keep it and use it professionally and for personal things I'd use my married name (well, unless it was some really weird name and then I wouldn't use it at all....lol!)

I don't think I helped at all..... :D

you asked a question about a job interview . that is my job interview i told you what i would do that is all all of this un-necessary talk is not needed you've missed the point. i just answered the question would i keep it on or take it off. i still call it a job and it is in the real world i get real money for it.just like you do so i guess it's a real job right you all have the "hollywood " problem not me . I't strictly business with me a job that's all and one i happen to enjoy.

Oh... blah! Jeez.

I kept my ring on. Happily told them I was engaged. Talked about my kids, too. :p Felt honesty was the best course.

WOOOOO!!!!

And ignored my Dad telling me I shouldn't wear a sleeveless shirt (as gorgeous as it is) cuz it shows my tattoo. Even got asked about my tattoo. :D The recruiter was a 27 year Army recruiter vet. :eek: All I can say is I am just glad I was myself, cuz now I can go to work on the first day and just be me and know that I don't have anything to hide.

~phos

Good for you! Way to stick it to "the man".

well emzak, in my opinion is all about priorities, if yours is being yourself above all then wear your rings, if your priority is getting the job and you think you cannot make it wearing your rings then dont wear them, it wont change a little the person you are.

I myself would take my rings off, you freely decided to apply for a job with a predefined look, and you must fit the corporative image in order to get it, so well i would not have a doubt.

As i said you are the same person, except than then you are the person you are and the person they are looking for.

I always see it like this, it is you looking for them not them looking for you, so give them what they are looking for, if that job is what you are looking for too. Sorry if it sounds confusing :)

Nasmah, I completely understand what you are saying and this is how I feel about this too....I just didn't know how to put it into words.

The corporate, business suit-wearing world is very foreign to me and I have no idea on what is expected or not expected. And personally, my priority is to NOT be in a career that would require me to hide elements of my life that are important to me. Hehe...that's why I ended up as an ecologist and will likely never make even half of what Emzak will be earning. LOL.

So, for me, I would never ever remove my rings if I was married or engaged, but in Em's situation, maybe it is the right thing to do? And really, I can't see it being all that different than a guy removing his rings because he does construction work...in both cases, it's in the best interest of the job to remove the rings. You do what you have to do to get the job done.

Ugh, I think you made more sense than I did, Nasmah!

My Dearest Sis Em...:)

Knowing your intelligence and capabilities make yourself worthy that the employer and the job needs you ... Not as much you need it.

There are many flight attendants,showbiz performers etc who are happily married and same time well performing their jobs.

So the "Ring" should not matter as you're lucky to wear it.. There are many women who crave for this ring but are being regularly seduced under false promises by their boyfriends.

*L* there is no way i'd remove my ring. you don't like the fact that i'm married? didn't really wanna work for ya anyways...

*L* there is no way i'd remove my ring. you don't like the fact that i'm married? didn't really wanna work for ya anyways...


well said!

Ok. I've given more thought to this. Lots of good points on both sides. Just a couple random thoughts in response:

1) Sexist or not, I think it's different when a MAN wears a wedding ring. Since women are still considered the primary caretaker of children, employers (such as Poll's) assume that when the child is sick, it will be the wife--not the husband--who will take time off to take care of it. Hence, yes, man with wedding ring means "stability", but WOMAN with wedding ring means "has bigger priorities than the office".

2) It's easy to say "well, if you don't like who I am, then I don't want to work for you". But what happens when ALL the companies you are applying to feel the same way, in varying degrees? Do you just not work then? Phossy, I love your tattoo and I think it's very flattering on you, but unless I am applying for one of those rare, very liberal legal jobs (e.g. attorney for the ACLU, one of those hip Silicon Valley law firms, entertainment lawyer), I will not be hired, period. No partner in a big law firm wants to see an employee with tattoos or unconventional piercings.

3) Sue a law firm for hiring discrimination??! :eek: Perhaps a good idea in theory, but not in practice. I will probably be black-balled by the legal community, which is very small.

4) I just want to get the job, not change the system. And when I'm in the job, I just want to move up the system, not change it. Maybe when I'm a senior partner at some hotshot firm raking in millions of dollars a year, I will show up at work in jeans and a t-shirt, but until then, it's a solid grey or navy suit for me.

Hmm, rereading what I just wrote makes the answer seem clear. :( Also, Zakem doesn't care either way. Thanks to everybody for your input!

So what did you decide?

Nadine.

If you've decided not to wear your ring, I would really recommend not wearing it for awhile before the interview so you get used to not wearing it. At least I know I feel really naked without my rings on, and that wouldnt be a great way to go into an interview. Good luck with the interviews.

So what did you decide?

Nadine.
I'm leaning towards no. We'll see...

I totally understand that...

But I hate the fact that you started thinking about it because of what a book said.

Like I said....I'd do my own experiment...a couple interviews with it on...and a couple with it off....and see what happened.

Thats just me though. *grin*

Nadine.

Me thinks no matter WHAT she wears (rings on, rings off, blue wool suit, black pinstripe or white linen) she will get a job on her first interview... if not first, second.

That's just my gut instinct speaking there. :D
~phos

Me thinks no matter WHAT she wears (rings on, rings off, blue wool suit, black pinstripe or white linen) she will get a job on her first interview... if not first, second.

That's just my gut instinct speaking there. :D
~phos

I agree....

Ditto.

Nadine.

You guys are too kind. :)

Btw I just found out from the career office at my school that I have 20+ ( :eek: ) interviews lined up the week of 8/14, which basically gives me only one week to prepare. I'm freaking out!!!

These are all just preliminary interviews on campus. If I do well, I will get a "callback" which means I will go to the firm for a second interview. That's really the one that counts, but to get to that, I need to get through this round first.

Wish me luck. ;)

P.S. I think I'm going to wear my wedding band, but not my engagement ring.

em.... best of luck!!! you will do fine!

:eek: Wow, Emzak. 20 interviews lined up? Awesome! I wouldn't be surprised if over half of them called you in for second interviews. ;) You will do awesome. I've no doubt.

Good luck anyway... ;)

http://www.saltspring.com/oldisland/images/106_Good_Luck_Charm_Chinese.gif

~phos

Not that you'll need it, but Good Luck! I'm sure most of them will call you back. You'll do great.

Good luck

Wow, Emzak - good luck!! Very exciting but I can't imagine 20 interviews in one week. Yikes!

Woooooo Good luck! :D

I know you'll do SUPER!

Also...I think that's a good decision about the wedding/engagement ring.

Nadine.