What do you think of the smoking ban?

New Jersey is implementing the smoking ban in April, modeled after New York City.

I, personally, am relieved because I don't smoke and I've always HATED going to a restaurant/bar/cafe and then coming out reeking of smoke. Plus I'm also allergic to smoke.

I have smoker friends though and some of them don't care but others are pissed.

I don't think these laws are just since they tell private property owners how to run their business.
But since I don't smoke it'd make my night of barhopping more comfortable.

This is currently a HUGE issue in Colorado.

There is a proposed smoking ban. You'd think the world was ending for business owners.

Coming from NY after the smoking ban was implemented, I was very used to smoke-free businesses and I do NOT like dealing with smoke here.

Since Colorado is one of the healthier states, I am surprised that so many people are so OUTRAGED by it.

And now there are all sorts of exceptions: casinos, mom and pop businesses, etc... so many exceptions, actually, that those who proposed the bill no longer support it.

My take: if there can be a smoking ban in Ireland, there can be one anywhere.

A casino owner said "smoking and gambling go hand in hand"--- well, that's because you can smoke in casinos! If you couldn't, then they would no longer go hand in hand.

Do it on your own time in your own space but do NOT make me and my company uncomfortable.

I said this on Ageless once: I don't fart in your face, please don't smoke in mine"

I'm a smoker and I like the smoking ban. The smoking ban in New York is a workplace safety act. I know some people will say, well, you can just get a job somewhere else. But the precedent for positive change and positive regulation in my mind has been...no, your employer really doesn't have the right to poison you or put your life at risk....you or anyone else, so they can make bigger profit. Itd be like working getting a job in a manufacturing plant with collapsing catwalks or equipment with no guards or lack of access to a water source or no haz mat containment materials or lack of lock out tag out training...and when someone dies a horrible death...have the owner come out in a press conference and say, well, he knew what the deal was, he could have got a job somewhere else. :eek: This is 2006, not 1890. Since we do respect property rights in the US to some degree ...hence the exceptions to most of these states laws...if the joint is run by the owner or partners, no one else on payroll, you can't regulate smoking in those places. So if I want to drink and smoke at the same time, I'll go to those places. When the weather is nice, I got to a place with a beer garden and drink and smoke outside together.

I actually feel guilty going to states where you CAN smoke inside. I have the habit of going outside anyway.

I LOVE it! I live in NY and it's been such a wonderful thing for me. I've always had problems with smoke - having a hard time breathing, asthma attacks and the like. I moved back to NY (from Indiana) and it's been wonderful playing music in pubs without having to worry about my breathing or coming out smelling like an ashtray.

~Crysania

Well, I can see both sides of the coin. Here in WVA, there is no smoking in restaurants and that's fine. In VA, there is SMALL well ventilated smoking "areas" in most bars/restaurants, but since so few people smoke, it never really causes ANY issues...

What I don't like is the bans on smoking ANYWHERE in public. Those are assholish rules and need to be kicked to the curb. It's fine if y'all don't want smokers INSIDE, but ya got no right to ban them from smoking OUTSIDE and several municipalities have tried to do this... that's fight worthy.

~phos

Outside PERIOD. Anywhere in the county. :eek: Yep... some places have tried.
~phos

Australia is looking at banning smoking in cars.:rolleyes: YOUR CAR!

Ok, here's my take. If you take offense - GOOD!

FUCK all you whiney bastards and bitches. Get a fucking life. Stop telling people how to run their businesses and their lives. Don't like being around a smoker, DO NOT come to my place. Ohhhhh, it's ok to go DRINK alcohol at a bar - and god forbid someone has a smoke. BAN ALCOHOL! I can't smoke, you can't drink. Don't give that 'smell like burnt ashtray' crap, how lame. Ya fucking drunks smell like a brewery. Cigatettes don't cause a .10 blood alcohol level ya drunk drivers. Ya know what I can't stand? Ban all perfumes, makes my eyes water and the stench:eek: Besides smelling like my grandmother with all that power puff shit, I can't breath. Can't taste food either over smell of that nuclear waste.

Wanna ban something? Ban sex, then people like me will not have to fund with taxes paid other peoples abortions. Ban ugly people... sight pollution ya know. Ban McDonalds. Ban Burger King. Ban PIZZA - makes people fat.

BAN BAN BAN

fuck this shit!

If your going to ban anything that might mean something -

ban lawyers and politicians. :D

ROFLMFAO... *wipes tears of laughter*

OMG, I actually DO agree 100% on the damn perfumes. Can't people figure out you only need a DROP? GEEZ!! I was once sitting on a THIRD floor balcony and these two women walked by on the street and the stench of their rancid perfume wafted THREE STORIES UP and damn near knocked me out. Had no choice but to stand up and yell, "HEY!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? YOU ONLY NEED ONE DROP!!! DON'T BATH IN THAT FOUL SHIT!" :eek:

OH man, that was a priceless post, Salt. I'm impressed!!!
~phos

ROFLMFAO... *wipes tears of laughter*

OMG, I actually DO agree 100% on the damn perfumes. Can't people figure out you only need a DROP? GEEZ!! I was once sitting on a THIRD floor balcony and these two women walked by on the street and the stench of their rancid perfume wafted THREE STORIES UP and damn near knocked me out. Had no choice but to stand up and yell, "HEY!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? YOU ONLY NEED ONE DROP!!! DON'T BATH IN THAT FOUL SHIT!" :eek:

OH man, that was a priceless post, Salt. I'm impressed!!!

~phos

When I flew to Australia, which was really my first time on a plane, I discovered that I don't fly well. Meaning that my stomach starts to churn on the descent and I want to hurl. Well, everytime we descended on that trip some insane woman would spray her perfume. Okay, this is an enclosed space, recirculated air....so you get the idea. I thought I was going to have to track her down and shove the perfume bottle right down her gullet.

Perfume typically doesn't bother me on other people and I can only wear one fragrance. I've worn Opium or some version of it since I was 16, but on an airplane? Come on now lady.:mad:

Shan

FUCK all you whiney bastards and bitches. Get a fucking life. Stop telling people how to run their businesses and their lives. Don't like being around a smoker, DO NOT come to my place. Ohhhhh, it's ok to go DRINK alcohol at a bar - and god forbid someone has a smoke. BAN ALCOHOL! I can't smoke, you can't drink. Don't give that 'smell like burnt ashtray' crap, how lame. Ya fucking drunks smell like a brewery. Cigatettes don't cause a .10 blood alcohol level ya drunk drivers. Ya know what I can't stand? Ban all perfumes, makes my eyes water and the stench:eek: Besides smelling like my grandmother with all that power puff shit, I can't breath. Can't taste food either over smell of that nuclear waste.

Wow, I want to see what you're like when you have road rage! :D

R-O-F-L-M-F-A-O @ Salt!!! That was fucking hilarious!

And I agree with everything up 'til the sex part.

I think the decision to make an establishment non-smoking should be left up to business owners.

I don't smoke, so I really don't care much. But I do think its' pretty fucked up to say no smoking in a bar. Everyone that goes to a bar knows what they're into. If non smokers really were concerned with smoking at bars, someone would have opened a nonsmoking bar.

I do wish there was no smoking at all restaurants.

Also, if anyone comes in my store smoking a cigarette I'm beating them with an iron pipe. And yes, there have been people that have walking in a fireworks store with a lit cigarette.

Also, if anyone comes in my store smoking a cigarette I'm beating them with an iron pipe. And yes, there have been people that have walking in a fireworks store with a lit cigarette.
Just buy a good insurance policy, leave the premises and let them blow the place up. Time to thin out the herd if they're doing that shit.

I'm all about killing of the idiots, but that would screw with my income.

And we try not to talk about that too much. Here's our main store this last Dec. Kid said "static electricity" lit something. BULL FUCKING SHIT...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/allprorock/sheltonfire-2.jpg

Australia is looking at banning smoking in cars.:rolleyes: YOUR CAR!

Ok, here's my take. If you take offense - GOOD!

FUCK all you whiney bastards and bitches. Get a fucking life. Stop telling people how to run their businesses and their lives. Don't like being around a smoker, DO NOT come to my place. Ohhhhh, it's ok to go DRINK alcohol at a bar - and god forbid someone has a smoke. BAN ALCOHOL! I can't smoke, you can't drink. Don't give that 'smell like burnt ashtray' crap, how lame. Ya fucking drunks smell like a brewery. Cigatettes don't cause a .10 blood alcohol level ya drunk drivers. Ya know what I can't stand? Ban all perfumes, makes my eyes water and the stench:eek: Besides smelling like my grandmother with all that power puff shit, I can't breath. Can't taste food either over smell of that nuclear waste.

Wanna ban something? Ban sex, then people like me will not have to fund with taxes paid other peoples abortions. Ban ugly people... sight pollution ya know. Ban McDonalds. Ban Burger King. Ban PIZZA - makes people fat.

BAN BAN BAN

fuck this shit!

If your going to ban anything that might mean something -

ban lawyers and politicians. :D

Would like a little cheese with that whine?

I'll show you fucking 'WHINE' when I stomp the fucking shit outta your grapes:eek:

Cheese. Yeah, like restaurants that serve stinky feet cheese.... Only way to cover up that putrid stench is good smoke:cool: And Zeplin playing loud to drown out the screaming kids at the next table...... :p

screaming kids at the next table......

GAWD! Talk about making people uncomfortable. I know I'm about to sound like a bitch for saying this, but if your kids can't behave in certain places, then ya just shouldn't take them there. :eek:

GAWD! Talk about making people uncomfortable. I know I'm about to sound like a bitch for saying this, but if your kids can't behave in certain places, then ya just shouldn't take them there. :eek:

Preach it sista.

1. i'm a former smoker
2. my husband is a heavy smoker
3. i don't mind if people smoke but they are limitied in our house to brian's office or the porch.
4. i don't mind if people smoke in bars when it gets bad I go outside
5. if the make folks smoke outside can they NOT hover around the doorway so i have to walk though the haze of smoke?
6. there is a guy at work who smokes a pipe. i have no idea who he is but i always want to say 'thank you' when i see him/smell him smoking that wonderful pipe.

I'll show you fucking 'WHINE' when I stomp the fucking shit outta your grapes:eek:

Cheese. Yeah, like restaurants that serve stinky feet cheese.... Only way to cover up that putrid stench is good smoke:cool: And Zeplin playing loud to drown out the screaming kids at the next table...... :p

Are we supposed to use such language here? And grapes? Wtf are you even talking about?

I'm still glad there's a smoking ban in places.

And it's not going away. I guess it's time to adapt, eh? Seriously - you're not making a good case here. I usually find many smokers to be incredibly rude, blowing smoke in non-smoker's direction, throwing their cigarette butts out of the car (nice - polluting the environment), sometimes smoking where they're not supposed to. I have no pity for you.

~Crysania

Bars could easily install an exhaust system... there is one here at a bar/restauant... works very well. I don't mind a pure restaurent that is non-smoking (I do not smoke when I eat)- but when the bar is.... :eek:

It would be like mandating people wore 1920ish style suits at the beach... as some might find bikinis 'objectionable' or that they illicit bad thoughts in the male species.

When it comes from government - it is all about societal control.

Bars could easily install an exhaust system... there is one here at a bar/restauant... works very well. I don't mind a pure restaurent that is non-smoking (I do not smoke when I eat)- but when the bar is.... :eek:

It would be like mandating people wore 1920ish style suits at the beach... as some might find bikinis 'objectionable' or that they illicit bad thoughts in the male species.

When it comes from government - it is all about societal control.

This has to do with health, nothing more. I play music in pubs all the time - I think I should be able to be guaranteed a place that is not detrimental to my health for gigs.

Exhaust systems only go so far. The place is STILL polluted with smoke with them, especially when the place is busy.

~Crysania

Are we supposed to use such language here?
~Crysania

Every day. :cool:

Every day. :cool:

Well, I think it's rude. But that doesn't surprise me at this point.

~Crysania

I play music in pubs all the time ...I think I should be able to be guaranteed a place that is not detrimental to my health for gigs.

~Crysania

How loud do you play?

[what is that ringing in my ears? No wonder I can't hear for-shit no more. Guess if I don't like loud music, and as it is bad for me, I should not go there. Perhaps if I sit in the back and have a smoke:eek: ]

How loud do you play?

[what is that ringing in my ears? No wonder I can't hear for-shit no more. Guess if I don't like loud music, and as it is bad for me, I should not go there. Perhaps if I sit in the back and have a smoke:eek: ]

I am an acoustic musician, and we usually play during the quiet part of the day with no amplification. When we ARE mic'ed it's still quiet enough to easily talk over.

So nice try anyway.

On a side note, I do think they should have an ordinance about how loud music is played at bars. I usually avoid them at night to keep away from that in order to protect my hearing.

Crysania: There are plenty of bars in plenty of counties which are non-smoking. Why not make a concerted effort to ONLY play those venue's, rather then supporting the GOVERNMENT stepping in and requiring "private" businesses to follow their rules? As a musician myself, I find that a pretty lame ass excuse to support government control. :rolleyes: No offense intended.

And it is SO not about "health." It's about government control. This IS supposed to be a free country. And as a non-smoker, you can exercise YOUR right not to play in environments YOU deem unhealthy. But as for the people who CHOOSE to go there? That is THEIR choice. Leave 'em be.

As for people tossing butts out their window, I use to have a major problem with this too... until I realized a few things. A) cigarette butts (MOST of them, at least) biodegrade VERY quickly. Camel, for example, is all cotton. Takes about a month or so and its completely gone. I know this because they get tossed in my flower beds all the time. B) AUTO manufacturers have STOPPED installing ashtrays in most cars. Soooo, praytell, what's a driver supposed to do? I can understand NOT doing this in states like California and Colorado which suffer wildfires (it's even a crime to flick and ASH out the window there, which I completely understand), or during droughts, but in wet, wet areas? What difference does it make? Considering they degrade more quickly dissolving in water than in a LANDFILL. :rolleyes: And C) when people toss them in public ashtrays and/or areas outside of stores... it employs someone. :o Heaven forbid, someone gets PAID to clean them up!!!

And yep... cussing around here is perfectly acceptable. :D And perceived "rudeness" is also... see, perception is key. What one considers rude, another might not. Limiting freedom of speech is a notion best used for "moderated" boards.
~phos

And it's not going away. I guess it's time to adapt, eh? Seriously - you're not making a good case here. I usually find many smokers to be incredibly rude, blowing smoke in non-smoker's direction, throwing their cigarette butts out of the car (nice - polluting the environment), sometimes smoking where they're not supposed to. I have no pity for you.

Rude smokers are rude people - it's not the smoking that makes them rude. I am a smoker and I am a very considerate person and I am very conscious of other people, even when I am smoking. And drunk people in general are far more rude than smokers. So the rude people blowing smoke in your direction in a bar are prolly drunk (or at least buzzed).

And your actual car pollutes the enviornment at least as much (if not more) as a smoker who throw their cig out the window. Plus, not all of us do that.

There are certainly two parts to this question of "what do you think"

a) do you like it or dislike it PERSONALLY: in which I personally liked it and MISS it.

b) do you think the government has a right to tell people how to run thier business:

Personally, yes. The government has a say in restaurants for how food is prepared, how clean the kitchen and the bathrooms are, if everything passes health inspection, if there are the proper amount of exits, if there are fire extinguishers, etc... I think this is equal to those types of requirements.

Why? Because I love it. I think smoking is a horrible thing and I'm quite happy to support my state's goverment's ban on it in restaurants and pubs here. Before that, EVERY pub I ever went to had smoking. I never knew of one that didn't have one in my area. Now...all free. I can eat at restaurants without worrying about being seated too close to the smoking section. I can go to pubs and play at pubs without having to worry about smoke. I'm glad of it.

Do you support them taking smoke out of places of business? The place I work at now used to allow people to smoke inside. Do you think there shouldn't have been a ban on smoking in businesses?

This ultimately IS all a moot point. Smoking is banned in restaurants and pubs. Nothing you can do about it here.

Biodegradeable or not - I think it's simply horrible to throw cigarettes out your window. I've even had ones hit my car because they threw it out while driving. Just rude.

As for language and freedom of speech. Spare me. I was just asking a question since it surprised me - many places tell people to not curse like that and to try not to be rude to others. I was just curious.
~Crysania

And it is SO not about "health." It's about government control.

Exactly!

AUTO manufacturers have STOPPED installing ashtrays in most cars. Soooo, praytell, what's a driver supposed to do?

They actually sell ashtrays in most smoke shops that fit in your cup holder. Most of the smokers I know have one.

This ultimately IS all a moot point. Smoking is banned in restaurants and pubs. Nothing you can do about it here.


It may be a moot point where you are... but it's not here in Colorado. Coming from NY, yes, people couldn't do anything about it... but that's not the case for the majority of the country.

On a side note, I do think they should have an ordinance about how loud music is played at bars.

Guess we could use such an ordinance concerning -

how loud your stereo should be capable of going - at home or in your CAR! How loud you play your TV -

How you prepare your food -

How hot your hot water is -

What temperature you set your heat / ac?

Let's just regulate everything. Get it over with.

Guess we could use such an ordinance concerning -

how loud your stereo should be capable of going - at home or in your CAR! How loud you play your TV -

How you prepare your food -

How hot your hot water is -

What temperature you set your heat / ac?

Let's just regulate everything. Get it over with.

Oh please. Are you one of those assholes who thinks gay marriage will lead to marrying your dog too? They're regulating places where the PUBLIC goes, where lots of people from all walks of life goes...NOT your own house. They regulate the food too - the cleanliness of the restrooms and kitchens. Should they stop that too?

What a pathetic argument THAT one is.

~Crysania

This ultimately IS all a moot point. Smoking is banned in restaurants and pubs. Nothing you can do about it here.

~Crysania

Actually, yes there is. :eek:

Elect people who see the lack of freedom and liberty intrinsic to governmental regulation - and watch the law change. :D

Actually, yes there is. :eek:

Elect people who see the lack of freedom and liberty intrinsic to governmental regulation - and watch the law change. :D

Now why would I do that? I like the law.

You know what you could do that would aid in it all? QUIT SMOKING.

Tough one, eh?

Ultimately, I'm done with this "argument" as its progressing into the ridiculous.

~Crysania

This ultimately IS all a moot point. Smoking is banned in restaurants and pubs. Nothing you can do about it here.

Which is fine, since I think NY is way to socialist and would never want to live there, let alone visit. :eek: LOL

Biodegradeable or not - I think it's simply horrible to throw cigarettes out your window. I've even had ones hit my car because they threw it out while driving. Just rude. Last time I checked, rudeness wasn't illegal. Did a butt hitting your car HARM you OR you car? Seriously.

As for language and freedom of speech. Spare me. I was just asking a question since it surprised me - many places tell people to not curse like that and to try not to be rude to others. I was just curious.

Maybe you missed the part of WHY this forum was created? Oh yeah, so we would have a LESS moderated forum where we're free to be ourselves. Some might find it rude. But, that's your problem, not mine or anyone else here. :D

~phos

Personally, yes. The government has a say in restaurants for how food is prepared, how clean the kitchen and the bathrooms are, if everything passes health inspection, if there are the proper amount of exits, if there are fire extinguishers, etc... I think this is equal to those types of requirements.

Then it should be okay for the gov. to ban alcohol because alcohol harms just as many people as smoking does.

Which is fine, since I think NY is way to socialist and would never want to live there, let alone visit. :eek: LOL

Last time I checked, rudeness wasn't illegal. Did a butt hitting your car HARM you OR you car? Seriously.



Maybe you missed the part of WHY this forum was created? Oh yeah, so we would have a LESS moderated forum where we're free to be ourselves. Some might find it rude. But, that's your problem, not mine or anyone else here. :D

~phos

A. NY kicks ass...the entire state is great. I love living here.

B. I didn't say that was illegal. Just rude.

C. I wasn't HERE when it was created. I was asking a question before proceeding. I like to have all the facts and make sure such things are allowed BEFORE participating in such antics.

Speaking of . . . looks like smokers are going to have to quit soon unless they want to go broke.

They just went up to almost $8 a pack here! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Then it should be okay for the gov. to ban alcohol because alcohol harms just as many people as smoking does.


And it could definitely be a possibility.


Here in Colorado, they are exempting "amoking establishments" i.e. places of business set up JUST for smaking... ciagr bars, hooka bars, etc... so the argument would be that bars are set up for drinking.

The deal is this: If the government could ban alcohol, they would. BUT, it's been done, and it couldn't be enforced...

Although in some places, the smoking ban is also difficult to enforce. There were plenty of bars in NY who flat out refused to enforce it... I moved before I knew what happened to them...

Oh please. Are you one of those assholes who thinks gay marriage will lead to marrying your dog too? They're regulating places where the PUBLIC goes, where lots of people from all walks of life goes...NOT your own house. They regulate the food too - the cleanliness of the restrooms and kitchens. Should they stop that too?

What a pathetic argument THAT one is.

~Crysania

You completely miss the point. Australia is looking to ban smoking in one's own car. Would you like California to do that? I beleive you would - stamp out all smoking (like getting rid of all guns) EVERYWHERE - STATE WIDE, NO EXCEPTION.

Regulating cleanliness in restaurants is of interest to the state. Though most people would not go to places that serve bad food - they'd be outta business real fast.

Here one cannot (restaurant) get a Med-rare burger. Why? State says so.... WTF??????

Are you one of those assholes who thinks gay marriage will lead to marrying your dog too?
~Crysania

LMAO -

I will admit that I am one of those assholes who believes that an armed populace is a safe populace. :cool:

C. I wasn't HERE when it was created. I was asking a question before proceeding. I like to have all the facts and make sure such things are allowed BEFORE participating in such antics.


yes, cursing is allowed here... this forum is not moderated for the most part... in the hope that people WILL be themselves, will NOT be afraid to speak their minds, and people's true colors will show through. this forum is trying not to mask anything.

I think ESPECIALLY in a debate section... the easily offendable ought to beware!

C. I wasn't HERE when it was created. I was asking a question before proceeding. I like to have all the facts and make sure such things are allowed BEFORE participating in such antics.

EXCELLENT! *claps loudly* Glad to see you on board. ;) :D

~phos

EXCELLENT! *claps loudly* Glad to see you on board. ;) :D

~phos

LOL. Well, the last thing I want to do is get banned because I followed suit and the mod didn't like it! Most places I'm in are moderated and most places allow younger people in (13+), even if there aren't many of that age there...and so they limit cursing and such. Some you can't even type the words without getting an error when you post, so I just wanted to make sure Salt wasn't going against the "rules" in some way.

All new people, I think, need to tread somewhat carefully before they know the lay of the land.

~Crysania

The deal is this: If the government could ban alcohol, they would. BUT, it's been done, and it couldn't be enforced...

It's not really a matter of whether or not it would work, because we all know it wouldn't as it hasn't in the past. Like you said earlier, it's whether or not the government should even be involved with decisions like this. And when it comes down to it, most people would not be okay with the gov. banning alcohol, so why is it okay for them to ban smoking?

Ultimately, I'm done with this "argument" as its progressing into the ridiculous.

~Crysania

That is because your argument is berift of any semblence of liberty and freedom. You hold your beliefs and desires above others. You would regulate my life according to your dictates. (You'd make an excellent modern mainstream politician.) You say my beliefs in liberty and freedom are ridiculous.

I take great exception to that.

That is because your argument is berift of any semblence of liberty and freedom. You hold your beliefs and desires above others. You would regulate my life according to your dictates. (You'd make an excellent modern mainstream politician.) You say my beliefs in liberty and freedom are ridiculous.

I take great exception to that.

LOL. You're funny. You hold your beliefs and desires above others too. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

It's not really a matter of whether or not it would work, because we all know it wouldn't as it hasn't in the past. Like you said earlier, it's whether or not the government should even be involved with decisions like this. And when it comes down to it, most people would not be okay with the gov. banning alcohol, so why is it okay for them to ban smoking?
Because... the majority of people out there BELIEVE, whether it is true or not, that most people would like to see things smoke free.

We interviewed a smoker about the ban here... he said "a smoking ban would get in the way of my right to do whatever I want"

But the truth is, you CAN'T always do whatever you want.

I am in TOTAL disagreement about places banning smoking outside... but as far as indoors... I personally think it's a good idea.

but as a NON smoker, I'm bias!

Speaking of . . . looks like smokers are going to have to quit soon unless they want to go broke.

They just went up to almost $8 a pack here! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Taxes. Don't you love 'em?:eek: :rolleyes:

LOL. You're funny. <b>You hold your beliefs and desires above others too.</b> Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

How so?

The difference between us is that you would force another to your will. I allow freedom of choice, be it individual or business.

I alone cannot force you to do anything without violating your rights. You though enjoyably use government to force me - as you alone cannot. That, by definition, is tyranny of the majority over the minority.

As a smoker I am bias too, I admit.

Imagine this: you've had a long, hard week. You really want to unwind with a few drinks at a local bar or lounge with your friends. Some people drink to do this and some people smoke. I don't drink. But I would like the same opportunity to unwind and socialize with my substance of choice ;) as those who use alcohol. I think most smokers would really like to keep some places where they can go and hang out with friends without having to go outside every time they want to smoke. And it would really suck if that was taken away from smokers.

How so?

The difference between us is that you would force another to your will. I allow freedom of choice, be it individual or business.

I alone cannot force you to do anything without violating your rights. You though enjoyably use government to force me - as you alone cannot. That, by definition, is tyranny of the majority over the minority.


time for me to make some popcorn!

But the truth is, you CAN'T always do whatever you want.

You're right, you can't always do what you want, but there are some things that you should be allowed a choice. And this is one of them. Business owners should be allowed to choose whether or not they allow smoking and individuals should be allowed to choose whether they want to patronize establishments that allow smoking (or that are smoke-free).

There has not been a ban here yet (although there will be one implemented soon). And for the past several years, most establishment have chosen to be smoke free all on there own. Imagine that. And most smokers I know don't complain about that. So why can't it just be left at that? Why does the gov feel the need to regulate on this when people can make the decision on their own?

LOL. Well, the last thing I want to do is get banned because I followed suit and the mod didn't like it! Most places I'm in are moderated and most places allow younger people in (13+), even if there aren't many of that age there...and so they limit cursing and such. Some you can't even type the words without getting an error when you post, so I just wanted to make sure Salt wasn't going against the "rules" in some way.

LOL don't worry about getting banned here. It won't happen unless you do something really bad i.e. illegal. I'm a firm believer that people should be left alone to moderate themselves for the most part. ;)

You're right, you can't always do what you want, but there are some things that you should be allowed a choice. And this is one of them. Business owners should be allowed to choose whether or not they allow smoking and individuals should be allowed to choose whether they want to patronize establishments that allow smoking (or that are smoke-free).

There has not been a ban here yet (although there will be one implemented soon). And for the past several years, most establishment have chosen to be smoke free all on there own. Imagine that. And most smokers I know don't complain about that. So why can't it just be left at that? Why does the gov feel the need to regulate on this when people can make the decision on their own?


Moon,

get over it, I'm right and you're wrong. Debate resolved! :)

That's my way of saying I have to finish my project at work if I wanna get out of here in 45 minutes!

Moon,

get over it, I'm right and you're wrong. Debate resolved!

That's my way of saying I have to finish my project at work if I wanna get out of here in 45 minutes!

LOL. You're a trip skibunny! I've always liked your sarcastic sense of humor.
Well you go girl - I gotta' go work too. Good luck!

Originally Posted by Crysania-
I - just wanted to make sure -Salt - wasn't going against the "rules" in some way.

Busybody.:D

Doesn't everyone basically get what they want in the end?

Nope. That's the point . . . non-smokers get what they want in the end. This was a big deal even when I wasn't a smoker. What I have a problem with is the gov control issue more than anything.

When I drink I don't pour booze down others' throats. When others smokes I have no choice but to breathe it in.

Yes, but you have a choice to not go to places that are heavily smoke filled. And when someone who has been drinking at a bar decides to drive home and gets into a car accident and kills someone else who hasn't been drinking, then the booze has, figuratively (sp) speaking, been poured down someone elses throat. And that is just one example of how alcohol harms other people.

Originally Posted by moon
Then it should be okay for the gov. to ban alcohol because alcohol harms just as many people as smoking does.

When I drink I don't pour booze down others' throats. When others smokes I have no choice but to breathe it in.

Moon was refering to the societal costs associated with the activity, not the effect of one individual upon another.

There is a big difference between the perceived 'rights' of society generally and those of the indvidual. According to the Dec. of Independence God did not grant society any rights, only individual. One right is the right of 'choice'.

What we are really discussing here is individual rights v governmental regulation. Banning smoking (or alcohol) via governmental regulation where choice is removed permits one to exercise their right at the cost of another's.

So, by government edict, an establishment owner who would choose to allow smoking is disallowed his choice - whereby one segment of the population is favored above another.

It's not about smoking -

It is about liberty.

I can choose not to go to a bar which is heavily smoke filled, just the same as you can choose not to go to a place where you cannot smoke, same thing.

No, that is NOT the same thing. See, we cannot chose, in YOUR jurisdiction (and many others) to go to ANY place where we CAN smoke ~ except outside in -20C. Thank you. Pretty UNFAIR if you ask me. You can chose to go to places that are non-smoking, but apparently, laws have been enacted wherein smokers CANNOT. Again, unfair.

Businesses should have a right to regulate whether or not they care to cater to a smoking clientele, and if so, that should be THEIR choice. And yours not to patronize said businesses.

~phos

I find it amazing that many who champion the governmental 'anti-smoking' 'you have no choice' mantra - ban cigarettes (cigar/pipe) - does promote one group's favored right over another > societal consequence.

These same people would yet take a different tack concerning any ban on abortion, which also has a severe societal consequence as it effects the individual.

Oh please, that's just being dramatic.

Perhaps. But, accurate.:)

I can choose not to go to a bar which is heavily smoke filled, just the same as you can choose not to go to a place where you cannot smoke, same thing.



WRONG!. When government dictates that all establishments serving food and or alcohol are 'smoke free'... just where do I go?

My choice is gone in absolute favor of yours.

Oh please, that's just being dramatic.

I don't think it's dramatic at all. That is the issue.

I can choose not to go to a bar which is heavily smoke filled, just the same as you can choose not to go to a place where you cannot smoke, same thing.

No, not quite. If there is a ban on smoking in all public places then there will be no choice. This is the point - it's about choice. When govs implement bans, it takes away choice.

BTW, just for the record, I don't think that alcohol should be banned. I just used it as an example. And I didn't mean to turn this into a drinking vs. smoking thread. But not only alcoholics harm people when they drink.

... unfair ... Now it's just the other side of the coin.

Fairness. What a load.

It's been unfair that others have Ferrari's, palacial homes, swimming pools, -
It's been unfair that you can't afford steak every day.....
It's been unfair that Mary can afford 20K/year clothes shopping....


Lets make it fair....... Lets remove Mary's choice - pass a law - that forces her to give that 20K to Mouse. Now Mouse can go shopping. That's fair.

But isn't that what you're doing? When bars were all smoking I didn't have any place to go that was non, did you have a problem with your right being favoured over mine?

I don't think so. We aren't saying that all places should allow smoking or that smokers should be allowed to smoke where ever they want. We are just saying that the owners should be allowed to choose.

Like I said, either way, people aren't going to be happy. Before the by-law was in place, I could NOT go to a bar without smoke, so same thing. I've been there, I know what that's like. That was unfair but there was nothing I could do about it. Now it's just the other side of the coin.

I'm trying to figure out where all these restaurants/bars were that chose to not allow smoking before bans were in place were. I never saw one in all my travels until they implemented the ban. Before that, it was either go out, have trouble breathing, and come home reeking of smoke...or don't go out at all. I really hated not having a real choice in the matter.

And yes, there were smoking or non-smoking SECTIONS in restaurants - but smoke still permeated the place. And if you were seated too close to the smoking section, you might as well have just been put IN the smoking section.

One bar I was at a year or so ago had an entirely closed off space that allowed smoking. Since it was kept away from the bar and enclosed, they were allowed to keep it. But that was the only place I ever saw that truly had a separate section for smoking.

~Crysania

But isn't that what you're doing? When bars were all smoking I didn't have any place to go that was non, did you have a problem with your right being favoured over mine?


No right was being favored. None.

Choice was being favored. That is freedom.

Open a no smoking bar. As long as it by your choice how to operate - fine; your right. Serve food. If it's good, I'll come there. I can't smoke there, but I'll come... my choice.

conversely, if government dictated that all bars must permit smoking - I'd be against that too.

I'm trying to figure out where all these restaurants/bars were that chose to not allow smoking before bans were in place were.

There have been lots here for years in the Chicago area.

But isn't that what you're doing? When bars were all smoking I didn't have any place to go that was non, did you have a problem with your right being favoured over mine?

See, now... even when I was a teener in the DC area, bars and dance clubs frequently had non-smoking sections and areas. One bar had three dance floors, two indoors, one out. One side was smoke-free, had two bars handy for it. The other side was a smokers paradise, as was the outside dance floor. I thought that was COOL. I smoked at the time, but was underage, so I couldn't drink (always had a colored wrist band thingie).

We always had "non-smoking" bars around here before they banned it entirely. Absurd. And smoking sections in most restaurants were TINY and well ventilated. ALWAYS had people waiting for the smoking section. :rolleyes:

I just think it sucks raw eggs to go visit Canada, get dressed up for a night out dancing in some sweet skimpy clubbing tank and be BANNED to outside to smoke. Ridiculous. Rather than an all-out ban and force smokers outside in subzero weather, why not just open non-smoking clubs? Why? Oh, cuz no one would GO to them? Well, then what the HELL is anyone complaining about? :rolleyes:

~phos

One bar I was at a year or so ago had an entirely closed off space that allowed smoking. Since it was kept away from the bar and enclosed, they were allowed to keep it. But that was the only place I ever saw that truly had a separate section for smoking.

~Crysania

Business can do this without government. It is good for business. Blanket prohibitions are bad.

There have been lots here for years in the Chicago area.

Then I guess you were lucky. Because nowhere that I've lived has EVER had a totally non-smoking establishment. Everywhere in Indiana, it's still allowed. Everywhere in my area of NY had smoke until the ban. Some of us didn't have the choice of avoiding smoke-filled areas.

~Crysania

I understand this, and this is my point. When smoking wasn't banned, I didn't have a choice. ALL bars were filled with smoke, so there wasn't anywhere else to go, it's the same thing. But by NOT smoking, I didn't effect anyone else.(Can someone tell me the difference between EFFECT and AFFECT??? LOL) The issue is that now that smoking is banned it supposedly has taken away a smoker's choice, but before the banning, I didn't have a choice, so why doesn't that matter?

Yes, I understand your point as it may be very valid for where you live. But from the perspective of where I live it is very hard to understand because there a looooong time there have been non-smoking sections and many smoke-free establishments. The only places that might not have non-smoking sections here are the total dive joints where most of the patrons smoke anyway.

There have been lots here for years in the Chicago area.

Newport RI had a wondeful Italian restaurant. It was no smoking. Not because of any ban, but that is what the owners dictated.

Loved it.

I went there by choice... the to the bar that did allow smoking.... for a nightcap.

Business can do this without government. It is good for business. Blanket prohibitions are bad.

Businesses wouldn't have done it without the government. Sometimes the government has to step in to make things better.

Would people have kept away from forests if the government didn't declare them national preserves? Would car companies have made cleaner cars without the government's new emissions standards? I doubt it on both accounts. Sometimes the government SHOULD step in and change things. In the end, it'll be for the better.

And besides, if you quit smoking, it would save you a lot of money. ;)

~Crysania

Then I guess you were lucky. Because nowhere that I've lived has EVER had a totally non-smoking establishment. Everywhere in Indiana, it's still allowed. Everywhere in my area of NY had smoke until the ban. Some of us didn't have the choice of avoiding smoke-filled areas.

I've only lived one other place - Michigan - but from what I recall there were also a number of smoke-free places and even more places that had non-smoking sections there too. And I don't think there was a ban back then . . . which was about 10 years ago.

Yes, I understand your point as it may be very valid for where you live. But from the perspective of where I live it is very hard to understand because there a looooong time there have been non-smoking sections and many smoke-free establishments. The only places that might not have non-smoking sections here are the total dive joints where most of the patrons smoke anyway.

Welcome to the other side. We who don't live in large areas like Chicago did not have the choice of patronizing non-smoking establishments because they simply didn't exist.

~Crysania

Problem is that people will not pressure a bar/restaurant to add whatever to reduce/eliminate smoke - add non-smoking sections, etc.....

easier to have government pass a law - and further do what others want at the cost of liberty.

Even though I smoke, places without good smoke removal I cannot stay in....

Businesses wouldn't have done it without the government. Sometimes the government has to step in to make things better.

~Crysania

Bob Hope and General Jackson > make things better? To whom?

YOU?

Just what the fuck is better?

What the hell does that mean?

Problem is that people will not pressure a bar/restaurant to add whatever to reduce/eliminate smoke - add non-smoking sections, etc.....

easier to have government pass a law - and further do what others want at the cost of liberty.

Even though I smoke, places without good smoke removal I cannot stay in....

Non-smoking sections do squat. A smoking section completely closed off from the non-smoking section and ventilated on its own would have worked fine. The problem with that is that it would have required businesses to likely completely remodel their places. In a way, I'd imagine it was easier to implement the ban.

Ultimately, you're not going to change my mind, or anyone else's. I was in support of the ban when it was first brought to the public's eye and it was a big draw to moving back to NY once it was implemented.

~Crysania

And besides, if you quit smoking, it would save you a lot of money. ;)

~Crysania

Then we were doing you a favor... and you bitch about it:eek:

It's cheaper to say home and eat / drink than it is to go out.

You should be more appreciative. ;) :rolleyes:

Welcome to the other side. We who don't live in large areas like Chicago did not have the choice of patronizing non-smoking establishments because they simply didn't exist.

~Crysania

Because you chose not to open one. ;)

Bob Hope and General Jackson > make things better? To whom?

YOU?

Just what the fuck is better?

What the hell does that mean?

Wtf does Bob Hope or General Jackson have to do with anything? I'm sorry, I didn't see their names in my post anywhere. But maybe you're illiterate? Hmmm...

Better = healthier for everyone

Some of us don't like being exposed to your cancer sticks.

Do you have anger problems? Perhaps you should see a counselor for that issue. I mean, between smoking (emphysema and lung cancer) and anger issues (high blood pressure and heart problems) you're a walking time bomb.

~Crysania

Because you chose not to open one. ;)

Right because of ME. Moron.

Then we were doing you a favor... and you bitch about it:eek:

It's cheaper to say home and eat / drink than it is to go out.

You should be more appreciative. ;) :rolleyes:

Illiteracy confirmed.

Right because of ME. Moron.

Yes, you!

You consistently look to others, especially government, to provide your view of how things should be.

You could have opened up a non-smoking establishment - and gotten rich providing that service people of your ilk demand.

You had a perfect opportunity - and you blew it.

Yes, you!

You consistently look to others, especially government, to provide your view of how things should be.

You could have opened up a non-smoking establishment - and gotten rich providing that service people of your ilk demand.

You had a perfect opportunity - and you blew it.

You know. This is worthless. You do nothing but make assumptions about me based on ONE issue. Again. I repeat. MORON. Go smoke yourself to death.

Illiteracy confirmed.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.....:p :D :p :D

*pounds table in fits of hysterics*

*runs off to make popcorn*:cool:

You know. This is worthless. You do nothing but make assumptions about me based on ONE issue. Again. I repeat. MORON. Go smoke yourself to death.

Huh? He made assumptions about you? Based on ONE issue? I don't know, hon, they're pretty telling. When you're willing to throw out other people's civil liberties in favor of your own, that DOES say something.

Nothing moronic or unfair about his argument. Are you getting angry with him because it has merit?

I also think ya blew it not opening a non-smoking establishment. Think of all the money you could have earned PRE-banning. :eek:

~phos

You know. This is worthless. You do nothing but make assumptions about me based on ONE issue. Again. I repeat. MORON. Go smoke yourself to death.

I base my assumptions not on any ONE issue, but on what you have written.

As to litteracy -
You have no understanding of the exclaimation "Bob Hope and General Jackson" ? - Yes, let's talk about litteracy shall we?


And besides, if you quit smoking, it would save you a lot of money.

~Crysania

How was the following to saving you money....

Then we were doing you a favor... and you bitch about it

It's cheaper to say home and eat / drink than it is to go out.

You should be more appreciative.

Dayam - you should be more appreciative. We've saved you big bucks.



Illiteracy confirmed.

And that was the best you could do?

I say again - shall we talk about litteracy?

Huh? He made assumptions about you? Based on ONE issue? I don't know, hon, they're pretty telling. When you're willing to throw out other people's civil liberties in favor of your own, that DOES say something.

Nothing moronic or unfair about his argument. Are you getting angry with him because it has merit?

I also think ya blew it not opening a non-smoking establishment. Think of all the money you could have earned PRE-banning. :eek:

~phos

I just don't see it that way...sorry. I don't see banning smoking in establishments that the public goes to as banning civil liberties. Banning it in your home, yes...telling smokers they can't vote. Those are banning civil liberties. Banning smoking in order to make it healthier for those to go out into establishments is not part of that, not for me. We just see this two very different ways.

And I'm not mad at him. He appears to be the one with the anger issues - I just find his accusations and rather randomly contrived messages amusing.

Unfortunately, not all of us are capable of running businesses. You have to be a particular type of person - I am not.

LMFAO*************:D :D :D

~Phossy? Do I have anger issues????? :eek:

*I'm running out of popcorn real fast*

Crysania, have you ever looked into getting a refund on your education?

Unfortunately, not all of us are capable of running businesses. You have to be a particular type of person - I am not.

Evidently no one else in that area was either. :eek: :eek: :eek:

I mean, sure does seem as if NO ONE did (open smoke free joint)....

Why is that? :confused:

Probably because they thought they would make no money. :eek:

See, here's the thing. I've been an off/on smoker most of my life. When I'm not smoking (quit for 3 years, quit for 2, quit for another) I honestly don't care if other people do. My boss smokes cigars in HIS office. He owns the building, his right to do so. Doesn't bother me. When I go out to clubs, it's the one time I really DO like to indulge myself. And oddly, so do most of my entirely non-smoking friends. :eek: I have a dancer friend from back in the day. She likes the taste of a ciggie every once in a blue moon. But, she doesn't smoke. Except when we go out to a club. Once in a blue moon.

I'm not the bar type myself, but if I DO go out to a bar, I would like to be able to go to one where I can light up a ciggie or ~ better yet, mood determined ~ a nice Bacarat cigar. Yum. There is a really cool place down the road from my office that is 95% non-smoking, but off to the side of their bar, they built a smallish room with a lovely view of a pond and a great big fireplace and a bunch of cozy leather lounge chairs... and it's a smoking room. Love that place. You can kick back with a big old cigar, feet on the hearth, sipping a nice glass of Port and enjoying the atmosphere.

Under total bar/restaurant banning scenarios, even this would be unacceptable. Which I find unacceptable.

~phos

I tend to agree....equating a smoking ban with civil liberties is a bit over the top!

In resturants and bars, I'm all for it! If people want to smoke, they should go outside and smoke and not posion other peoples lungs with that nasty stuff..my friends smoke while I'm around them, and it kills me..

Sierra brought up an interesting point earlier that the ban is also used as a means to protect employees' rights to work in a smoke-free environment.

As customers, yes, we have the option to take our business elsewhere. But what about food industry workers who may not have the option to just pick up and leave? What would happen if courts told abestos-infected workers "well, you should have gotten a job elsewhere". Same thing with musicians like Crysania, who may not have the luxury of picking and choosing their gigs.

Shouldn't businesses be required to take reasonable measures to safeguard their employees' health and safety?

I'm a non drinker. I don't like being around alcohol. Know what I do about it? I stay away from places where drinking is the main thing going on. It's that simple.

I agree. I think the employer does have that responsibility. In New York state, the insurance lobby had a lot to do with passing the law.

But what about food industry workers who may not have the option to just pick up and leave?

Any why not? What removes that option from them?

I agree. I think the employer does have that responsibility. In New York state, the insurance lobby had a lot to do with passing the law.

That very insurance industry has a vested interest - avoidance of claims.

Whatever happened to all that tobacco settlement money? :rolleyes:

Yeah Salt...that's why they lobbied real hard in New York for the law...and they are always on the side of raising tobacco taxes.

And I don't think workers should have to chose between working without any proctection from known carcinigens and their job.

And I don't think workers should have to chose between working without any proctection from known carcinigens and their job.

It is imprudent for any business to endanger their workers.

But it seems that many people believe that only government can protect them; new laws covering everything.

Yeah Salt...that's why they lobbied real hard in New York for the law...and they are always on the side of raising tobacco taxes.


Yes they are. Insurance is a 'for profit' enterprise. Any claim reduces profit.

What a scam insurance is. As it is now institutionalized one cannot get by without it.

You can get by without insurance....if you have enough money to pay for thousands of dollars worth of testing and treatment. There are many doctors in the city that accept 'cash only.' They range from non liscenced immigrants who were doctors in their home countries...to filthy rich, cream of the crop doctors, whose clientele don't need to bother with insurance claims.